‘Donald Trump is irrelevant…if India-Pakistan became friends, the first to lose pivotal role would be the US’
General Asad Durrani has been chief of Pakistan’s ISI. He has now co-authored the book The Spy Chronicles: Raw, ISI and the Illusion of Peace with former RAW chief AS Dulat, both spy masters in conversation with journalist Aditya Sinha. General Durrani spoke with Srijana Mitra Das about his surprising camaraderie with Dulat, how Kashmir could help bilateral cooperation — and why he thinks the USA will lose influence if India and Pakistan grow closer:
Q) Given that he’s been chief of RAW, and you, chief of the ISI, the camaraderie between you and AS Dulat is quite a surprise — how did you both meet, became so friendly, and so trusting of each other? Wasn’t there a contradiction inherent there?
A) Well, we have been meeting on Track Twos for over a decade. We have written joint papers (on Intelligence Cooperation, for example) and we have talked to each other as “professionals”.
No, there was no contradiction anywhere.
Q) You discuss Kashmir in this book. Do you agree with Mr Dulat’s view, that it is now too much of a money-making operation for anyone to seriously want to stop the violence there?
A) I don’t think that was his main argument. He knows the place too well to come to such a bland conclusion.
That Kashmir could become — because of its criticality — actually a test case for bilateral cooperation, well, both of us agreed upon that. If that or any other factor led the two countries or the region to find a better relationship, as has happened in many other parts of the world, it was certainly a possibility.
Discussing various scenarios in any case was always advisable — on sensitive matters, away from the limelight.
Q) Speaking of "away from the limelight", given that Nawaz Sharif's been nixed, and other politicians and media are under tight controls, is Pakistan basically under un-announced military rule today?
A) I do not comment on internal (or external) political matters.
Q) Tell us this though — how efficiently is Pakistan conducting its policy on Kashmir and homegrown terrorism? Are there things you’d want to see done differently, particularly in the age of President Trump?
A) Considering the complexity of the situation, internal and external, and some capacity issues, Pakistan has done a reasonably good job. A few things, such as more ownership by the civilian institutions and less “kinetics” by the military, were certainly advised.
Donald Trump is irrelevant — a much overrated factor.
Q) You mention the Americans’ great strength is "controlling the narrative" though — could you tell us concrete instances of the same?
A) The first instance — that it invaded Afghanistan in response to 9/11 could be defended (though plenty of evidence exists that it was planning to do so in any case), but that it’s now there to fight “terrorism”, ensure peace, etc., is “hogwash”.
It is essentially there to maintain military bases in a strategically crucial region.
Turmoil in fact is helpful to justify its presence — in itself, a destabilising factor.
Similarly, its acts in the Middle East are meant to create and keep chaos. Fighting the likes of Daesh is merely rationalisation... Instability in certain regions — including ours — helps the “sole superpower” to remain relevant (remember Cheney).
If India and Pakistan became friends, the first to lose the pivotal third party role would be the US.
“Pakistan considers India as an existential threat” is a mantra churned out by the “Beltway”. I am not aware of any informed quarter in Pakistan, which, though recognising acrimony, exalted the Indian factor thus.
Another instance — the Ukraine may be conceded as “Russia’s Strategic Depth” by Stratfor; the US has convinced at least the “Official West” that Moscow was the main culprit.
The list is endless, but as icing on the cake — all its sponsored reports recount all the flaws in the American policies in Afghanistan, but still conclude that, “but for Pakistan”, the world’s mightiest alliance would have succeeded!
I don’t mind as long as they also concede that we were the real superpower.
Q) While on superpowers, Osama bin Laden was found in Pakistan by the USA. There’s been speculation that Pakistan's “deep state” — or possibly, General Kayani’s circle — sold him out to the Americans. What is your view?
A) My assessment of that is adequately expressed in the book.